You are currently browsing the tag archive for the ‘Part 3A’ tag.

I found the following ICAC media release which recommends reforms to the Part 3A development approval process & include it for those who are interested.

“ICAC recommends reforms to Part 3A of the NSW Planning legislation

Monday 13 December 2010

The Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) recommends that the NSW Minister for Planning refer private sector applications under Part 3A of the Environmental Planning & Assessment Act 1979, which exceed development standards by more than 25%, to an independent quasi-judicial body for determination.

The Commission recommends that this role be assumed by the Planning Assessment Commission (PAC). In view of the important functions the PAC would assume, the Commission makes recommendations to strengthen its independence & to ensure that it is composed of appropriate persons, on a full-time basis but with a limited tenure.

The Commission’s report, The exercise of discretion under Part 3A of the Environmental Planning & Assessment Act 1979 & the State Environmental Planning Policy (Major Development) 2005, released today, makes altogether 20 recommendations to more effectively manage & mitigate potential corruption risks in the Part 3A process.

Commencing in 2005, Part 3A consolidates the different assessment & approval regimes for “major” projects in NSW determined by the Minister for Planning. The State Environmental Planning Policy (Major Development) 2005 (the MD SEPP) identifies several classes of Part 3A projects including significant private developments (for example, residential flats & commercial developments), & public sector infrastructure projects (for example, desalination plants & pipelines).

The ICAC recognises that it is appropriate that in many of these classes the Part 3A discretion should continue to be vested in the Minister. Nevertheless, in other situations there is a risk that perception may arise of corrupt influences playing a part in the Part 3A decision-making process. The key issue is the adequacy of safeguards when such Part 3A discretions are exercised. The need for adequacy of safeguards applies to elected or unelected officials at every level of government.

“The Part 3A system is characterised by a lack of published, objective criteria,” the report says. “There are also various elements of Part 3A that are discretionary, particularly as regards residential & commercial development, which are prohibited or exceed existing development standards. The existence of a wide discretion to approve projects that are contrary to local plans & do not necessarily conform to state strategic plans has the potential to deliver sizable windfall gains to particular applicants. This creates a corruption risk and a community perception of a lack of appropriate boundaries.”

While there are no established examples of the corrupt use or manipulation of discretion under Part 3A there is, nonetheless, considerable discretion built into Part 3A. Similar kinds of discretion have been the subject of several Commission investigations & investigations in other jurisdictions & beyond.

Under the current system, the Minister has the discretion to declare a project to be a Part 3A project by Ministerial Order. It is the loose criteria & the broad discretion that potentially give rise to perceptions of undue influence. The risk of this occurring is heightened by the Minister not being bound by the provisions of local environmental plans (& SEPPs generally, in the case of critical infrastructure projects).

To limit discretion & improve safeguards, the ICAC recommends that the NSW Government amend the EP&A Act to limit the application of Part 3A to projects that are permissible under existing planning instruments. The Commission also recommends that the PAC perform a gateway role, by way of independent scrutiny, in reviewing proposals to call in private sector projects via specific Ministerial Order.

The Commission & the NSW Department of Planning established a joint task force this year to examine whether there were corruption risks attached to Part 3A & to develop measures to address any of the identified risks. The Commission acknowledges the valuable assistance provided by the Department in participating in the task force.

However, the report has been prepared in its entirety by the Commission, & consequently its recommendations are those of the ICAC.”

To read the full report –



'No Marrickville Metro expansion' signs are all over Marrickville Road shopping strip. Shop owners say Metro destroyed Marrickville & Illawarra Roads shopping strips when it was built. An expansion will cause death to the local strip

Marrickville Chamber of Commerce are holding a march against the proposed Marrickville Metro expansion.  They say if the expansion goes ahead it will destroy Marrickville shopping strip as well as have a negative impact on the local area.

Local Marrickville shops will close their doors from 3.30pm to 4.15pm to participate.

Marrickville Council is strongly against the Metro expansion & the Councillors are unanimous in their opposition saying Metro shouldn’t have been allowed in this site in the first place.

If the Metro expansion goes ahead the negative impact on the community will be huge.  In order to give us the kind of shops like the ones we can access close-by at Roselands, Eastgardens or Broadway shopping malls, the expanded Metro will –

  • destroy local shopping strips in Marrickville & Illawarra Roads, Enmore Road & King Street South
  • create traffic gridlock from 5 million extra vehicle movements a year
  • create local parking problems due to staff cars
  • create more noise & air pollution
  • give us a looming building in a heritage residential area
  • result in the potential loss of 142 beautiful trees (equivalent to a park)

An extra 5 million vehicles a year will be devastating. Our roads are not built to cope with this.  Try driving up Victoria Road towards Enmore on a Friday afternoon. Even at 2.30pm the traffic is gridlocked with many drivers deciding to do a u-turn & try another route. The new Annette Kellerman Pool in Enmore is due to open in December bringing more traffic to the area.

You can access the plan at the NSW Department of Planning website under Major Works – Marrickville Metro Part 3A (MP009_0191).

The March Against Metro Expansion needs as many people from the community to participate to send a loud message to Minister Camel Tebbutt, Minister Anthony Albanese, the Minister for Planning & AMP Capital that shop owners & the community do not want the Metro expansion to be passed. It’s in the community’s interest to keep our shopping strips viable.

WHEN:      Wednesday 17th November 2010

WHERE:    Meet at corner of Victoria & Marrickville Roads Marrickville

TIME:          3.30pm to 4.15pm

You can read more about the Metro expansion here –


This was the Land Use & Assets Meeting.  Clr Kontellis was absent. The following was my understanding of the meeting.  All mistakes are mine.

Local Traffic Planning & Advisory Committee – 1 resident spoke about parking in Brown Street St Peters. The issues raised concerned long-term parking problems as many people drop their car off for the day & catch public transport to the city.  2 adjoining properties had requested disabled parking space, but only 1 was allocated meaning the users had to negotiate use. One of the users fell recently ending up at hospital. They re-requested adjoining disabled parking spaces. Carried unanimously.

Street tree with garden

Another resident & business owner spoke about proposed 1-hour parking restrictions in Liberty Street Enmore saying this would put their restaurant out of business. They asked that this be changed to 2-hour parking restrictions.

Clr Macri put up an amendment for 2-hour parking from 6pm-10pm in order to limit restrictions on Liberty Street Enmore.  Clr Wright made an amendment to the streets included in the parking scheme.

Clr Peters made an amendment that both sides of the streets be included in the parking restrictions instead of just 1 side.  She said 110 submissions were received from the community. 63% or 73 submissions said the scheme should go further & include more streets. She thought 12-months was a long time for the trial that won’t start for another 8 months & the residents were already frustrated. She said she thought restrictions on 1 side of the street would not help residents much.

Clr Thanos was against Clr Peters’ motion saying he thought changes needed to be implemented slowly to allow the residents to adjust to the changes. This was supported by Clr Wright. Mayor Byrne said she was happy the Go Get cars had spaces allocated & said 63% of submissions wanted parking restrictions on both sides of the streets & supported Clr Peter’s motion.  Clr O’Sullivan opposed Clr Peters’ motion saying Council needed to be prudent with changes. Clr Peters’ amendment was lost & Clr Macri’s amendment was carried unanimously.

Marrickville Council’s performance – Mayor Byrne was happy that Council spends triple the amount on community services than other Councils. Clr Hanna said that as the Report said we no longer have the cheapest rates & our business rates are also higher, Council couldn’t put up rates in the future. Clr Phillips said the residential rates are lower than the State & Group 3 average so if Council was thinking of doing work on the Library or the hospital site, they need to have a look at this.

Clr Thanos said both Councillors were correct & he’d like to see business rates fall with Marrickville Metro picking up the rest. He said he would only support a special rate variation only after we can show we have made the cuts & it is justified.  He said he would like more money spent on aged services in the LGA.  Carried unanimously.

Approach to community engagement & guidelines – Clr Peters said this encouragers more participation  by the community. (I haven’t had a chance to look at this. If relevant, I will write more about this later).

Joint Regional Planning Panels – Clr Phillips put up a motion that Council revoke all appointments to JRPP. He said Council was told that there would only be 1-2 developments/year. Instead there have been quite a number & all have been approved except 1 that was withdrawn.  He said when Councillors are members of the JRPP they can’t comment on the development in Council meetings. He said Council should write to the government & ask them to abolish the JRPP.  Clr Thanos thought the motion disgraceful, as it would deny the community representation. Clr Olive said that Council staff would still have a role by writing a report & Council will have a chance to make its view reach the JRPP. He said we should send a strong message to the government.

Clr Iskandar said he would support Clr Thanos’ idea to endorse Clrs Macri & Tsardoulias as representatives on the JRPP. He said these processes were put there to benefit our nation & sometimes we have to compromise.

drinking rainwater

Clr Macri said he couldn’t support Clr Phillips motion saying he found the JRPP process to be fair & it also accepted input from the residents. He said he would be more than happy to continue as a representative on the JRPP.  Clr Peters said if the DAs had come to Council, Council would have dealt with them. Now the process has been taken away from Council. Clr O’Sullivan said this approach effectively withdraws all support other than secretariat & will bring no benefit to the community.

Mayor Byrne said she didn’t believe in JRPPs & thought Council should be sending a strong message to the government about them.  She said the community does not think they work well. She also said she retained her view the Mayor should be on the JRPP & that the Councilors are the only ones who can bring the ‘emotional voice’ from the community. She said it was difficult that a member of the JRPP can’t be lobbied & if she was on the Panel she would work hard to bring the social heart to the process. Clr Phillips said Part 3A was very unpopular & the JRPP can’t be voted out of office & they were not voted into the position by the people. Motion lost with Clrs Olive, Peters & Phillips voting for the motion.

Clr Macri moved the next motion for himself, Clr Tsardoulias & the Director of Environmental Services to be on the JRPP. Motion lost.   Clr Olive moved that the Mayor be a delegate on the JRPP. Carried.  I couldn’t quite follow who the other representative was to be, though I think it is Clr Macri.  Meeting finished.

The next meeting was the Services Committee Meeting. As it concerned the Riverside Crescent Subcatchment Management Plan & the Greenway Connection to the Cooks River, I will write about these in the next post.


This was the Council Meeting.  Absent: Clr Peters.  The following is how I understood the meeting & all mistakes are mine.  So many interesting & important topics were discussed last night & to do them justice, I will post in 2 sections.

Marrickville Metro – Clr Byrne put up a motion for Council to leaflet all homes within 800 metres of Marrickville Metro to inform them of Council’s opposition to the expansion & why.  Clrs Hanna & Macri left due to pecuniary interest as they are both shop owners.

'No Metro Expansion' signs are all along the Marrickville Road shopping strip

2 residents from Metro Watch spoke for the motion saying they thought Council should letterbox the greater community or at least 1km radius of Marrickville Metro. They said AMP Capital have presented their side to the community & were misrepresenting the reality of the expansion. People need to know the impact of the Metro expansion on heritage, ecological & environmental aspects. They said AMP Capital is playing with words in their advertising – ‘upgrade,’ ‘revitalization’ when in fact it is a massive redevelopment.  AMP Capital use words like ‘could,’ instead of ‘will, ‘upgrade roads,’ instead of ‘remove on-street parking.’ There was also concern that shops keepers within Metro are coerced to display pro Metro development material.

Clr Byrne said her motion should be changed to 1km radius from Metro & that Council’s leaflet should be based on Council’s submission, which included traffic, heritage, trees, size, height & scale. She said she was concerned that people are unaware of Marrickville Council’s position about the Metro expansion.  She also said Council had written to the Planning Minister requesting that the DA approval process be returned to Marrickville Council.

Clr Thanos said he has a big regret that legislation surrounding pecuniary interests prevents councilors from representing the community. He did not leave with Clrs Hanna & Macri.  He said it was a “disgrace” that AMP Capital have been allowed to apply saying that 4 years ago the NSW state government said the land surrounding Marrickville Metro was to remain Category A Industrial to support jobs close to the city, “except Marrickville Metro” owners can apply for rezoning. He said he found this exception disgraceful as this allowed a billion dollar corporation to have a significant financial advantage for the future & penalized every other business owner in the area. He said Carmel Tebbutt must apply pressure to prevent AMP Capital getting such an advantage.  He also said Marrickville Metro shouldn’t have been there in the first place, that the expansion will destroy livability around the area & destroy shopping areas who will have a 30-40% decrease in business. He suggested Council’s opposition to Metro expansion be put in Marrickville Matters. He mentioned AMP Capital’s donations to the Labor Party, which stopped 2 years ago.

Clr Olive said it was important for Council to keep up the fight for our LEP, for residents & for businesses. He said Part 3A was meant to be for ‘state significant development,’ but couldn’t see how Marrickville Metro fitted this criteria. He supported inclusion in Marrickville Matters. Clr Kontellis said she remained cynical because it is a systemic issue that moves power of local decisions to a government who is often tied for a whole range of issues, including financial support.

Just some of the trees that surround Marrickville Metro

Clr Phillips also supported inclusion in Marrickville Matters & spoke in detail about AMP Capital’s selective language with their advertising. He said he was worried residents are being misinformed so it is important they know Council’s opinion.  He said AMP Capital’s advertising shows bikes, no cars, no struggling shop-keepers, no clogged streets, no loss of residential parking & nothing about the 142 trees that will be removed.  He said even the anarchists are against Metro expansion with local graffiti saying, “Vote. Shop. Vote. Die. No Metro Expansion.” Along with the anarchists, the shop-keepers, the residents, the councilors & the Council staff don’t want the Marrickville Metro expansion.  He said Carmel Tebbutt needs to speak louder against the development & said literature shows AMP Capital has donated $256,000 to the Labor Party.

Clr O’Sullivan supported both the motion & the amendment & said the Labor Councillors had already leafleted around the streets surrounding Metro & that the leaflets were paid for with their own money.  She suggested that St Peters be included in the mail-drop. She said Marrickville Council’s submission was a very important tool of information as it succinctly summarizes the case against the Marrickville Metro expansion & asked whether some of the information contained in the Chamber of Commerce & Traffic Reports be available for the community. She said Council needed a non-partisan leaflet & that she was concerned that many people were ambivalent about Marrickville shops believing Marrickville Metro was already stopping them from working. She spoke about the severe impact on boutique shops along Enmore Road & lower King Street citing the destruction of shopping along Glebe Point Road as an example.

Mayor Iskandar said Council & Councillors have always been against the Metro expansion & have always supported both residents & shop owners regarding this.  Clr Byrne finished off saying there was still a threat of compulsory acquisition where the NSW state government can give Smidmore Street to AMP Capital.  Carried unanimously.

I will write about the remainder of the Meeting in my next post.

Still more trees at risk of removal

A picture tells a thousand words. This was sent to me from a resident who lives opposite Marrickville Metro. Just a reminder, only 6 days left to get your submission into the Department of Planning.

The Public Meeting organised by Marrickville Metro Community Watchdog  (MMCW) happened last night at St Peter’s Town Hall. It was incredibly well organized for a first action of a new community group & their written information is terrific.

We were taken through a series of powerpoint slides that showed what was going to happen with the proposed expansion. This was the first time I have seen images & site plans.  The new Marrickville Metro is going to be enormous.

AMP is submitting 2 proposals: One that will incorporate the area across from Smidmore Road & one without. Basically it will be like Broadway in Marrickville. Terrific if shopping malls are your thing, but awful for all the business along King Street, Enmore Road & Marrickville Road to name a few.  I doubt all those wonderful little unique shops will survive & we will lose much of the creativity that makes the Inner West great.

MMCW organised a good range of speakers to go through the issues, Joe Khoury from Marrickville Chamber of Commerce, 4 residents directly affected, Marrickville Councillors Hanna, Macri, Peters, Olive & Mayor Iskandar.  Deputy Premier Carmel Tebbutt also spoke.  I spoke about the 83 trees that are at risk of being lost. It will be more now I have seen the actual size of the proposed development.

Some of the issues raised were:

  • The building is estimated to be between 19 -21 metres high. 2 storeys with 2 other levels of parking.
  • 65-68% increase in traffic & street parking problems from an extra 4 million shoppers a year.
  • More than 2,000 residences are within 600 metres of Metro.
  • 11,430 residences in a 1km radius will be greatly affected by traffic & parking issues. Local parking has already been earmarked for the Enmore pool.

The proposed DA will be put up for exhibition on 28th July 2010. From then the community has 30 days to get submissions in, though Marrickville Council is writing to the Minister to ask that a further 30 days be allowed.  This is not a given so the community needs to campaign inside the first 30 days.

The DA comes under Part 3A meaning the state Minister of Planning will decide whether to approve the development. Recently, the proposed 13 storey re-development of the Balmain Tigers was defeated due to massive opposition from the local community proving that if the community gets together, the state government will listen.

I will write a draft submission that I am happy to send to you. You can it change as you like. 200 submissions from the community will be insufficient to stop the expansion from happening. We need to send 1,000 at least to ensure our message is heard.  Every shop owner along our shopping strips needs to send a submission as well.  Petitions are great, but in my opinion, nowhere near as powerful as a submission.

MMCW are looking for people to help with this campaign. e-mail –

View of trees in the unused space beside the main entrance at Marrickville Metro

AMP, which owns Marrickville Metro, plans to expand the shopping complex by 35,000 sq mts, more than doubling its size.  They intend to bypass planning restrictions from Marrickville Council & apply to the Joint Regional Planning Panel under Part 3A.  In my opinion it is highly likely that the plan will get the go ahead from the JRPP, as they seem happy to permit development that local Councils have indicated they are likely to refuse.

The Marrickville Greens are opposed to the proposed expansion of Marrickville Metro & you can read what they think about the issue by clicking on this link – I am unaware what Marrickville Labor or the Independent Councillors think about the proposed expansion.

On AMP’s Marrickville Metro web-site they say their research showed:

  • One in 2 people found the idea of an expanded Metro “very appealing”
  • 81% of Marrickville LGA residents thought that an upgraded Metro would serve the community better
  • 58% liked both strip shopping locations & shopping centres

This is a seriously big Fig with a girth of many metres. It stands near the front entrance on Victoria Road.

Apart from the obvious impact this development will have on our local shopping strips & issues like increased traffic, pollution & delivery trucks, SoT’s main concern is the probable loss of all the mature trees which surround the Metro site & all the mature Eucalypts which line the surrounding roads.

Around the perimeter of the current Marrickville Metro there are 54 Figs, 13 Brushbox, 3 Camphor laurels, 1 Peppercorn, 1 Palm. There are 11 mature Eucalypts on Smidmore Street. This is a total of 83 mature trees & I did not include the smaller trees.

Looking at the drawing of the new Metro on AMPs web-site I would consider all these trees at risk of removal.  The artist’s impression of what the finished development will look like is interesting.  The drawing of the new Metro shows 3 London Plane trees & lots of paving.

AMP say they want feedback from the community.  They don’t appear to be asking how we feel about the expansion or whether we want it or not, but what kind of shops & amenities we would like. Regardless, you can write to AMP & give feedback.

Personally, I don’t want a bigger Metro. Two supermarkets are enough for me. I definitely do not want all those trees chopped down.  I believe that for the Inner West we need the opposite to concentration of large volumes of traffic towards 1 block of land. A sustainable inner Sydney needs shopping strips near where people live as opposed to being forced to use their car & travel for kilometres each time they go shopping.

AMP’s Marrickville Metro web-site is at the following link –

It was a very quiet meeting last night.  Councillors Kontellis, Thanos & Hanna were absent & Mayor Iskandar & Clr Tsardoulias had to leave for other engagements around half way through the agenda.  The following is how I understood the meeting.  All mistakes are mine.

First up was quest speaker Cathy Lloyd, London Co-ordinator & Director of Open Bethlehem which is trying to save Bethlehem by encouraging interfaith dialogue, peaceful cooperation & harmony.  She said only 15% of Bethlehem residents are Christian & if relations between religious groups do not improve, it is likely that the Christian churches in Bethlehem will be museums within a few years.  She will speak at St Luke’s Church in Enmore this Thursday night.

Then on to the Land Use, Assets & Corporate Committee Meeting.

South Ward Local Area Traffic: Marrickville Council’s report recommended 24 points & a few residents came to speak about various points in the report.

Traffic on Warren Road Marrickville South: one resident spoke against & 2 spoke for the recommendations.

The ‘for’ arguments were about the size of trucks using the streets with particular reference to the 19 metre trucks currently used by Woolworths, saying they were too long for the local streets, caused traffic grid-lock, road rage incidents, frequent property damage, increased the risk of accidents & lowered pedestrian safety amongst other issues.  They agreed Warren Road should be made one-way from Carrington to Illawarra Road & wanted traffic to be allowed to turn right from Renwick into Illawarra Road to stop a large percentage of traffic leaving Woolworths being forced to travel around the block to go west & north.

The ‘against’ argument reminded of past experience when roads were made one-way which resulted in significant traffic increases & also expressed concern that other residential streets would get more traffic as a result of Warren Rd & Schwebel Street being made one-way.  Mayor Iskandar & Clr Tsardoulias supported this fear.

Clr Macri suggested a 12 month trial to see if the one-way option worked, but a council staff member advised this wouldn’t be a good idea because if the trial was unsuccessful, the residents would not like losing their parking rights again.  Clr Marcri also said Woolworths needed to act responsibly & suggested council erect ‘concrete tank traps’ to stop damage by trucks to council property.

Clr O’Sullivan said 75% of Warren Road residents said they wanted Warren to become one-way with parking returned to them & 50% of Schwebell Street residents supported one-way for their street.

The outcome is the report will be open for community consultation soon before a final decision is voted upon.

Road closure in Wilford Lane Newtown:  One resident spoke, but I was not in the Gallery during this discussion.  The outcome was the issue was to return to the Traffic Committee.

Proposed Metro Bus service from Sydenham to Spit Junction in Mosman: A representative from the NSW State Transit Authority spoke about the proposed service saying buses will be the low to the ground, 19 metre ‘bendy-buses,’ air conditioned & wheelchair accessible.  After listing all the pluses of which there

Just to lighten up this post a little, here is a photo of Roundup madness

are many, he then said that Council would be expected to pay for all new signage, the relocation of other signage & a loading zone.  If Council didn’t agree to this, then State Transit may have to think seriously about NOT instigating this service or continuing to provide other bus services.

Sounded very much to me like Council was being held to ransom & Clr O’Sullivan used these exact words a few minutes later.

The cost of the signage is $9,000, which doesn’t seem much, but Marrickville Council is poor & this money will have to be taken away from essential works in the locality. Clr Phillips said with rates pegged at 2.6%, it was going to be very difficult for council to look after services & the state government should pay for the required signage.  This was supported by Clrs Byrne & O’Sullivan.  Clr Byrne said that currently only 17% of routes are accessible routes & only 18% of the buses were accessible.  Clr Macri said it was disappointing that this amount of money was being debated & the community would be prepared to pay for such a bus service.  The motion was carried.

Marrickville Local Environment Plan Update: Clr Phillips was disturbed that the Department of Planning did not want to include the McGill Street Masterplan rezoning in the LEP until Part 3A is settled “which this council is against.” Clr Byrne was concerned that Department of Planning wanted to remove ‘accessibility’ from the LEP.  The LEP will return at a later date.

Duration of council meetings:  All Councillors & the new GM thought meetings were too long.  It was noted that meetings run late when DAs are being decided upon & when many residents want to speak.  It was decided meetings will aim to finish by 10.30pm with a half hour extension if required & that Councillors could use responsibility & discipline & limit their need to speak, especially if others have said the same thing.

Government Information (Public Access) Act: This was about Freedom of Information applications, meaning what information you & I can get hold of.  One person has requested a recording of a council meeting & was supplied with the same.  Marrickville Council keeps audio recordings of their meetings for 3 months after they are approved, so you mustn’t delay if you want one.  You could apply for a transcript, but I have no idea how long they keep these.  However, the written word loses all other nuances that are clear with recordings.

Finally a recision motion was accepted to put mobility parking space outside a residential home in Newtown.  It had previously been declined, but new information regarding the level of disability was submitted.  9pm & the committee meeting was over.

In other council news of late, The Cumberland Courier published an article about Strathfield Councillor Danny Lim, including breach of code of conduct findings against him.

Next, also from The Cumberland Courier, Camden Council finances are in surplus largely due to development. I wonder whether Marrickville Council is hoping for similar with Section 94 money helping their financial position to become viable.

The Manly Daily asked “Is Warringah Council back on track?” with an article addressing poor behaviour by Councillors & long meetings with one where the agenda was not completed.

Lastly, another from the Cumberland Courier concerning Backpackers clogging Sydney’s local streets with their vehicles many up for sale.  Something to think about with the proposed DA for a 132 bed Backpackers in Addison Road Enmore with 7 parking spaces.  See Report from the Gallery – 2nd March 2010.



© Copyright

Using and copying text and photographs is not permitted without my permission.

Blog Stats

  • 626,450 hits
%d bloggers like this: